Message #1105

From: Klaus Weidinger <>
Subject: Re: [MC4D] 3^4 in 237 twists
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:14:06 -0700

Hi Melinda,

I think I don’t share your point of view in this issue. For me, everything that
relieves you of thinking is a computer aid. Simple utilities like undo/redo and
reset are a big help, but they only help you to use the programme, not to solve
the cube. And if you wrote down every twist you made (which would be REALLY
cumbersome), you could achieve the exact same thing, just a little more
error-prone and time-consuming. The piece finder is another example for those
utilities. It literally helps you to find a piece. You don’t need to think to
find a piece on a 3^3. The same stays true for a 3^4, there are just more of
those little cubies. This means, the piecefinder does some monotonous work for
you, but it does not help you with the solution itself. Therefore, the mentioned
ones are nice and very helpful tools, but I would not consider them as a help or
an aid, because they don’t do the thinking for you.
With macros this gets more difficult. But I still think, they don’t help you
with the solution. They just spare you from making the same considerations over
and over again and save you lots of time. Therefore I would not consider them a
real aid (in the sense of my definition) as long as we concern fewest move
solving. If we get to speed-hypercubing, they naturally are an aid, but we have
already discussed how to work around this in an older thread.

In conclusion, I would only call a solve computer-aided if one directly computes
4D algs (and of course higher dimensional algs), or uses 3D algs from the normal
rubiks, which were computed for one specific solve (that means optimal solutions
or parts of them). Using existing 3D algs which belong to any already existing
method should not be called an aid, because otherwise everyone knowing that
method would be allowed to use those algs, and for the rest it would be

I hope this point of view and my reasoning seem agreeable or at least
understandable to most of you, but please feel free to further discuss this
important topic.
Happy Hypercubing,

From: Melinda Green <>
Sent: Tue, July 27, 2010 3:31:54 AM
Subject: Re: [MC4D] 3^4 in 237 twists


I don’t mean to assert that a solution is computer-assisted simply
because the puzzle is implemented in software. In the case of MC4D the
most obvious forms of assistance are undo/redo and the macro facilities.
The piece finding tool in Magic120Cell is another obvious computer aid.
I also consider the reset command to be a computer aid. You can see how
intelligent minds can begin to disagree about just what constitutes an
aid and the degree to which those aids should or should not matter when
comparing solutions.

I’ll continue to maintain the existing record categories in the HOF but
please feel free to create and curate any new categories on the wiki
that you feel motivated to maintain.

Congratulations on your amazingly short solution BTW,

Klaus Weidinger wrote:
> Hi Melinda,
> I don’t really understand what you mean by "all 4D solutions are
> computer-assisted to one degree or another". Well, of course you need
> a computer, because otherwise you can’t run MC4D, but that is no
> assistance, yet. In my first solve I only used a pen, some sheet of
> paper, a regular rubik’s cube and one pocket cube. In my second solve
> I computed one PLL alg for the 3^3, but if I had known 2-look Fridrich
> and used the same alg or looked it up on the internet, there wouldn’t
> have been any difference. Therefore I would not call my first two
> solves computer-assisted.
> My third solve, however, is computer-assisted, because I would not
> have been able to solve a 3^3 in less that 30 twists.
> Concerning the categories, I would suggest the following three:
> - Without any help of a computer
> - Computer-assisted
> - Completely done by a computer
> If you don’t want to maintain these, I could do the job for now.